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 Pu`uanahulu tab?
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Pua Kai
Ha`aha`a

USA
1007 Posts

Posted - 09/28/2006 :  06:27:52 AM  Show Profile
Oh dear...
Reading through this AM, I am reminded of the movie title "Grumpy Old Men"...
More than anyone else, I think Jessie has kept us grounded and balanced in the aloha and what is pono. Along with Sarah and Andy, he has kept us moving along in a positive vein. Folks are referred to this site from many venues, including Mark when you are interested in AMC. But when we're at workshops, concerts, festivals etc, we send folks here. Tab is of natural interest. And once again, there are brand-new musicians, brand-new guitarists, professional musicians, experienced guitar players; and ukulele players bass players, just plain interested non-musicians...
Andy -
Maybe really encourage new folks to introduce themselves before getting roasted. And of course once again, it would sure be nice to know folks real names and towns or areas.
With aloha,
aunty nancy
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Retro
Ahonui

USA
2368 Posts

Posted - 09/28/2006 :  2:48:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit Retro's Homepage
Well, you gotta see where John's coming from, too. Some of us ol' futs don't take kindly to a newbie coming in and chiding us as "paranoid" and making sweeping statements about copyright, without having any idea (or spending the time to get an idea) how emotional that topic is to many on TP. It came across as kinda know-it-all-ish early on, and I think that's what pushed a lot of buttons. I know it had an effect on my hackles, but I tried to give a guiding response to Skinny1; but I fear he's given up on us already - that would be a shame. Understandable, but still a shame.

Poor communication is a two-way street.

=Gregg in Seattle, who may not know as much as he thinks he does - but, who knows?=
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skinny1
Aloha

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 09/28/2006 :  4:09:54 PM  Show Profile
I havn't left, just sitting on the sidelines. Sorry I created such a fuss. There are just so many songs to learn. I just discovered the song
Ka Wailele o Nu`uanu. This is, without a doubt, the most beautiful song I have ever heard and I have heard many songs from many styles. It's even prettier than Pu`uanahulu. To learn this by ear will take a couple of days easy. First I need to figure out what key its normally played in.
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RJS
Ha`aha`a

1635 Posts

Posted - 09/28/2006 :  9:50:26 PM  Show Profile
Not so much which key as which tuning. Once you can hum the melody, let your ear transpose it.
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Admin
Pupule

USA
4551 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2006 :  04:14:10 AM  Show Profile  Visit Admin's Homepage  Send Admin an AOL message  Send Admin an ICQ Message  Send Admin a Yahoo! Message
Welcome skinny1,

I am sorry that your first post stirred up such emotional responses. If you may allow me to be defensive for a moment:
  1. The taropatch.net `ohana is very passionate about Hawaiian music and culture.
  2. I take partial resposibility for the anti-tab trading mentality here because of my strong stance against people trading tabs in our community. Please refer to the faq: Can I share music and/or tabs here? Does Taropatch.net have a policy on copyrighted materials? Frankly, it's a position taken for the survival of this website, not because I do not want people to learn.
  3. We are glad to have professional musician members here too, and they bring their perspectives on copyright issues.
Hope you don't hold it against us. I welcome you as a member of the `ohana and thank you for sharing your opinions and new found love for certain songs. Diverse opinions and people make this a much more interesting place. All civil discussion is good. Hope you'll hang out a while.

Andy
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Pua Kai
Ha`aha`a

USA
1007 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2006 :  05:00:51 AM  Show Profile
Hi,
I'm just sayin' - cut the new folks some slack... the comments I reacted negatively to were not wanting to pay for music (in tab form), and checking your emotions at the door. Taropatch is full of emotion and the skinny kid will learn that. But it was too much telling Jessie that he'd overstepped his bounds.
The old folks around here hold the power to keep the site on track. When mistakes are made by new folks, consider the source, including where he's from. It's gonna happen again. You know that. You can choose to react or not, and whether the reaction is positive or not. Please don't check your emotions at the door; the passion is a strong part of holding our aloha.
Of course I'm still reacting to the thread a long time ago about the "problem of newbies on the site". If you don't want new folks here, then ask everyone to keep quiet about it. This is a very strong culture here on taropatch and many aspects are a very distorted view of what is "Hawaiian". There - sorry for venting, but gotta get it said.
n
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Retro
Ahonui

USA
2368 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2006 :  07:18:46 AM  Show Profile  Visit Retro's Homepage
Aw, hell ... let's just all get together and kanikapila! Garans we'll lose all the tension of this and any other threads.
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Pua Kai
Ha`aha`a

USA
1007 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2006 :  05:44:44 AM  Show Profile
And back to the original subject: No tab, but I just picked up Keoki's latest CD, Rise and Shine and he plays and sings this song - gorgeous!!! I shall post more about it under recordings...
n
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Mark
Ha`aha`a

USA
1628 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2006 :  07:50:32 AM  Show Profile  Visit Mark's Homepage
There is something that has been bothering me for years: Why is the subject of copyright an emotional issue?

I'm 100% serious here. Any discussion of artists' rights (and intellectual property rights) on the web instantly turns into a name-calling, hackle-raising quagmire. No matter how dispassionately one presents the issue - any side of the issue - feelings get hurt, reputations slammed, yada yada flame flame flame -- and the whole mess quickly degenerates.

Why????

We are all adults here, ain't we? We don't insult each other in person. Nor do we fly off into personal attacks when some one disagrees with us in conversation -- well, maybe not right away. Unless lots of beer is involved.... and politics (or Parlor Tricks, to quote Walt Kelly).

I don't hang out on too many other forums -- but are there similar fights over other abstact legal issues, like private property rights or Interstate Hiway speed limits? (What's with the 60 mph on I5 in Washington!?) Or other laws; gravity, say? The Nyquist frequency?? Should the toilet seat stay up or down???

A while back, in a related session, someone suggested I sell my TABs through my website so people can just pick up one or two instead of buying the whole book. I'm looking into the mechanics of that. And it sounds as if Don is considering something similar for Slack Tracks.

So, let me ask this of all youse guys, starting with Skinny:

How much should one charge for a single lesson with TAB as a PDF file and either a SMF or MP3 audio file? I'm not talking custom TAB, but I have ton's of stuff I've done over the years. All legal, 'natch.

Waddaya think?

Oh, and Keola and I TABed a basic arrangement of "Pu`u O Hula" (same melody, diff'rent title) in our book. Ket of G, TaroPatch tuning. Which answers one of Skinny's original questions.

It's a pretty simple melody, actually. And the melody is not uniquely Hawaiian -- I've heard variations of it for maybe half a dozen Cowboy songs. So have a go at it.

Yr Pondering (and ponderous) Pal

Mark




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Podagee57
Lokahi

USA
280 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2006 :  11:13:52 AM  Show Profile  Visit Podagee57's Homepage
I'd never given much thought to this issue (aside from what I heard in the press regarding record companies battle with file sharing) until my sons band was signed to a recording contract. I now have a totally new perspective. I have seen first hand the hard work and sacrifices that musicians make to get their music out to the public. His songs are now being downloaded from file sharing sites with no compenstation to him. When you see a young musician struggling financially you do not like to see people taking what he worked so hard to achieve. It takes talent and hard work to make a living with music. I feel that one should be compensated for those virtues.

It truly is a fine line...how far do you carry it? Should tabs of traditionl tunes fall under this veil? I can better understand artists concerns now. If an artist takes the time to write a song, and subsequently tablature for that song, then I feel that just like any other job, he deserves to be compensated for that time. Problem is, do you not use tab that you found on the internet because of this? That's a hard question to answer. How was it obtained? Was the writer compensated? In most cases the answer is probably no. If you do not have the ability to play by ear, then tab is a great way to do what seems to be so precious to most here...that is enjoy the wonderful experience of making music. I don't know the solution but I see the points from both sides.

I can't read music and until recently have never used tab. I stumbled on Patricks site a few weeks back where he has a little tutorial on slack key and tab. It is a great resource and I am now hooked on learning a form of music that I had only previously been able to admire from a distance. I feel that once I get a feel for the tuning I will be able to pick up a lot of it by ear, as I have done for so many years with standard tuning.

In the meantime I will be purchasing some of Keola's -and Mark's - courses as well as Patrick's (and probably whatever else I can find). I think it would be great to be able to purchase select songs. It would be nice to be able to hear a clip of the song for us who are ignorant to what the songs sound like...to some the names tell us nothing. Then you could choose to purchase both the recording for reference purposes and the tab. I'd certainly be interested.

And if it is written in Hawaiian (lyrics) some sort of translation would be to cool...and maybe to much to ask.


What? You mean high "E" is the TOP string. No way dude! That changes everything!
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Podagee57
Lokahi

USA
280 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2006 :  11:23:03 AM  Show Profile  Visit Podagee57's Homepage
One more thing. Mark you asked..."How much should one charge for a single lesson with TAB as a PDF file and either a SMF or MP3 audio file?"

How much is sheet music selling for these days? I haven't purchased any in years but seems like the last I bought was about 2 or 3 bucks a song. Maybe you could start there. A stripped down mp3 version and the tabs to go with it.

What? You mean high "E" is the TOP string. No way dude! That changes everything!
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Ianui
Lokahi

USA
298 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2006 :  11:58:29 AM  Show Profile  Visit Ianui's Homepage
I'm with you Mark, I too wonder what the market is for a single Slack Track song with tab would be. If anyone would care to comment please do.
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Reid
Ha`aha`a

Andorra
1526 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2006 :  12:01:17 PM  Show Profile
Yeah, this is just a version of what has been happening for years with P2P file sharing and the downloading of bootlegged songs, videos, whatever. Podagee had it right, this never happened before everybody got on the net.

But, your question about the incivility is unanswerable in the end. I won't even try to be complete, but, of course I have been accused of having insufficient aloha - the Hawaiian Nuclear Option. If somebody thinks sombody else is coming on strong, the Aloha pin is pulled. So, I am positive-definite, very unAloha. Around here, everyone has their own idea of what aloha is and most of us are wrong - me too, I guess - but a big component seems to be "sharing", whatever that means - yeah, Cap`n Cook got cooked because of his incessant demand for "sharing". There are the usual `net reasons, too.

I won't say too much more, because of my perceived unalohaness, but Podagee's $2-$3 per tab with MP3 , is too low - that's close to an Ipod song download and there is much more involved, plus lower volume. Stropes gets mucho more (~$10), and I think they are worth it.

Last words: Several years ago we came upon a photocopy of Reri Tava's funny OOP tabs of Uncle Ray's early songs, so we mailed Uncle Ray a check for $25. We couldn't locate Tava. I think that was just being pono. We have nearly every slack key tab ever created, both published and unpublished (except for most of Ozzie's treasure house of tab notebooks). We have paid for every single one, except for those given to us as a gift by the artist.

...Reid
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skinny1
Aloha

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2006 :  3:49:41 PM  Show Profile
"Hope you don't hold it against us. I welcome you as a member of the `ohana and thank you for sharing your opinions and new found love for certain songs. Diverse opinions and people make this a much more interesting place. All civil discussion is good. Hope you'll hang out a while..."

Thanks Admin. I did not get defensive. I extinguished my ego when I still lived in Hawaii. The more ego you have, the more to defend. Anyways, to answer Sarah's question, I like John Keawe's version of Pu`uanahulu the best. I find its the most accessible.

Edited by - skinny1 on 10/02/2006 4:04:04 PM
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sbar15
Lokahi

USA
151 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2006 :  10:36:06 AM  Show Profile
Don,

I wound be interested in single tracks for slack tracks count me in Don, Also Keola Beamer is doing video lessons with tab on his web site for $9.95 per song.

Steve
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