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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
 Posted - 11/22/2009 : 10:37:30 AM
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I don't visit you HSG folks much, but always wonder when listening to Gabby's old cuts...
WHY and WHAT creates that ETHEREAL TONE.
I've described it as sounding as if it's from outer space.
I do hear modern players at Maui Slack Key festival with that same old classic sound.
I assume that HSG was one of the first ELECTRIC guitar sounds, and they only had tube amps...and had to use real copper windings, until they learned all the cheap short-cuts later on in production costs! Of course, those old, original constructions were some of the greatest tone producers!
Go look at the most up-to-date digital technology, and you may see them plug in a 50 year old tube mic!
Imagine to hear it on an old radio in the 20's and 30's and so.
AM of course...something magical too about dialing in far-away, static laden broadcasts.
My dad and I used to drive the 49 Dodge around to find the best reception... at first for ball games (Kansas City A's broadcast network, and also for tunes from KOMA...in Oklahoma City.
Of course, No slack key from there, but with that prime tornado belt, perhaps possible to land somewhere "Over the Rainbow"...
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Trev
Lokahi
United Kingdom
265 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 02:56:33 AM
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The first Hawaiian record I heard was Gabby Pahinui. I found it instantly captivating. I loved the singing, the guitar style was unlike any other that I’d ever heard before, and sounded intricate and yet relaxed at the same time. Also there was this, as you say, haunting aetherial, outer space sound of the steel guitar.
If we’re talking about the same thing, I was shown what it was by Sonny Lim. It’s the use of what are sometimes called ‘chimes’ – what I know as ‘harmonics’. It’s a very difficult technique – you have to play a note and simultaneously use the palm of your right hand at exactly half way along the distance from the slide to the bridge of the instrument, to produce a harmonic which is an octave above the note you usually play – effectively extending the range of the steel up an extra octave. If you play tunes this way, you have to keep moving your right hand so that it is always exactly halfway between wherever the slide is at that point and the bridge.
I haven’t heard this technique used much in other sorts of music, but I think it’s a key feature in Hawaiian steel playing, especially of the old style. I look forward to hearing what some actual proper steel players have to say about it.
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 09:16:30 AM
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I'm not "an actual proper steel player," yet, but I'd say you hit the nail on the head, Trev.
David "Feets" Rogers played steel on those records, and he and his uncle Benny are probably the most influential steel players in Hawaii today. OK, along with Jerry Byrd...
His tone and taste are legendary. He played a bakelite Ric with one of those big horseshoe pickups. I've got a Silver Hawaiian w/ the same pick-up and I can tell you that it's is a huge part of that big sweet tone. Taste is the other part...
Don't know the amp, but I'd guess it was a Fender of some kind -- they were all tube back then, sigh.
Chimes are a huge part of the style. Trev's right about how you play 'em. It takes tons of practice, but it sure sounds sweet.
According to Fred Lunt, who knows the Rogers' style better than anyone, "Feets" had enormous hands and was able to mute the string behind the pickup with his pinky while picking in front of the pickup to get that amazing rhythmic "clucking" sound that is so instantly identifiable.
Like many, it was the music of the classic Sons of Hawaii, with Gabby & Feets, Eddie Kamae & Joe Marshall, that first rocked my world. Changed my life is more like it.
One more thing-- it doesn't have to be electric to be sweet. Pick up Barney Isaacs & George Kuo's CD. Maybe it is all about touch and taste....
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Adam Troy
Akahai
Australia
58 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 11:10:19 AM
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| Hi Guys, I raised the subject of tone in post on the HSGA forum and got zip for a response. Kinda funny for people interested in Hawaiian Steel Guitar. I have listened to what ever I can find in the way of recordings from the earliest Edison cylinders up to the vinyls of the 1960s and while the instruments and the styles are changing so are the mic's and recording methods. The same players sound radically different from 1940 to 1960. For my taste - the earlier the better. I think an important element was in the recording probably the way they mic'ed. That being said you can't beat a Rickenbacher A or B. There was a B7 for sale in Hawaii a couple of weeks back for $1300. But I have 6 guitars and I am trying to be strong. THe Benny Rogers albums on 49th State are a contradiction to the above opinion. Just love those records. |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 1:58:10 PM
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I love the sound Feet Rogers got on that steel, and some of the current players as well. But the problem with trying to duplicate anybody's sound on any instrument is you don't, and never will,have their hands. Banjo players wax poetic about Earl Scruggs' prewar Gibson, but he sounds like himself no matter what banjo he plays. I suspect David Rogers would sound like himself on any steel he picked up. And when he swapped banjoes with Don Reno, they both still sounded like themselves. Bobby Ingano, one of my favorites likes the old guitars, and frequently plays an old Ric. I've seen him on consecutive Sunday nights use 2 different guitars, but I couldn't tell much diference in the sound. I'm sure he could tell his own instruments apart by sound, and he may have had to play a little diferently to get the sound so close on each steel, but the real key is his playing and his familiarity with his guitars. I would sound pretty pathetic on any steel I (attempted) to play. At least at this point. Someday when I don't stink up the joint,(as much), the guitar /amp may make a bigger difference.
I'm convinced the more familiar you get with your instrument, the better you will sound. Steel, slack key, banjo, no matter. Ya gotta feel comfortable on what you have. When you feel comfortable, you can focus on things like perfecting your tecniques and learning to refine your sound and tone. Me, I still drop the steel!
Unko Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 2:53:20 PM
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| Gotta weigh in here. Cyril has his dad's steel. He says it's a Fender Sringmaster single 8, which I have suspected from his playing. C6 with a G on the top, bottom could be either an A, a Bb a C or a C#. imho, outside of a REAL frypan, the Stringmaster has the best tone of any steel I've tried. One of the secrets is in aqny 6th tuning. The 6 and the 1 tones (on my 8, the 3rd & 4th srings are an A and a C) are the 3 and 5 notes for the IV chord ( in this case an F chord is F A C). When you use these strings for the melody (at the F position it will be A & C). GAWD this is hard to describe!!! At any rate, if you use the lower strings to play the melody, it will sound REALLY muddy, but if you use the higer strings, it will be nice and clear, and so will your harmonics. Bobby Ingano, Alan Akaka, and ,via video Jerry Byrd all use this convention. I need to find someone in Seattle that can get a video up here so I can show y'all. All this verbage is wayyy too complicated. btw - I'm on the train just north of Eugene headed for LA. |
keaka |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 3:04:17 PM
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They got wifi on trains now??? Sheesh.
According to Fred, the Rogers family did not play in a 6th tuning. I believe it was either straight D or straight E-- just the major chord. (Sorry, can't find my notes from the class.)
I do recall that Fred picked up someone's steel in either C6 of G6, strummed it and grimaced, saying, "I just hate that sound." I guess it's all a matter of taste, eh?
But, like Slip sez, a 6th tuning is great for maximum harmony with minimal effort.
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Adam Troy
Akahai
Australia
58 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 8:22:33 PM
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| Going back to that ethereal tone some of it has to be the use of harmonics and seeing they can be anywhere on the neck you have some wonderful possibilities with two not stuff. I suppose some of you have seen this video. Ron Kanahele comes in late but he finally gets crankin' about 2/3 the way through. He relies on a lot of harmonic arpeggios and that Feet thing that sounds like chickens were he muffles it somehow behind the pickup.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QUdc9R0QKo |
Edited by - Adam Troy on 11/23/2009 8:27:07 PM |
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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 12:08:57 PM
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gotta chime in here...
it's great stuff...
and even though it's "unrelated' ...
friends who play Nashville steel here go on and on...
I love the stories they tell over a beer or two.,.
The guys with "steel minds" tell of Buddy Emmons or some of the original Nashville cats...
calling each other in the middle of the night...
They were hooking up a wire and pedal after drilling a hole through the body...to pull the strings and move tones...
and his friend calls up and says...."I know what to do...split the pedal so it can do 2 different things!" Gotta be a doctoral thesis in here somewhere...
Meanwhile, the Hawaian cats/advocates and hypnotized lovers of lap steel, stuck to their guns...
not hung up about if a pedal might go where no steel player had gone before...(they did it, without mechanical tricks)...
Hey, on the Island, we do it our way!
the Hawaiian guys, no less intensity and purpose....could do it with fingers and the bar. overtones, and all the DREAM stuff. Didn't even need a hat...or a fiddle..sorry Kapila.
What an amazing part of Human dream/art forms!
Of course, if I am on course (other than some blues guitar explorations with bottles and knives---for slides)...it was the Hawaiians' who expanded the feverish interest in these 'ABSURD" new sounds of sliding steel guitars that drove all the (pathetically bored), Bourgeoisie wild...and I guess I'm no different...almost a 100 years later.
Edited by - Kapila Kane on 11/24/2009 12:05:58 PM
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Adam Troy
Akahai
Australia
58 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 6:48:34 PM
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kapila kane, back in the sixties or seventies the immortal and one handed Billy Hew Len was on the mainland playing gigs when someone said "hey man, you play that country slide guitar!" To which Billy repied "Country-slide, your ass! I play Hawaiian guitar!  But at the same time it should be remembered that Billy and many other Hawaiians were wizards at the pedal guitars too. Check out Billy on this video about half way through he goes into Moana Chimes. I think he used three finger picks and got his palm harmonics plucking with the metal finger pick. Its a trick but he said it was more accurate. Maybe he meant cleaner. Anyway check it out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IrSq1rOoL4 |
Edited by - Adam Troy on 11/24/2009 7:01:59 PM |
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basilking
Lokahi
124 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 6:28:10 PM
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| I've recently begun working on getting better on my mid-'50s Fender Stringmaster 8. Seems like getting a good tone isn't so problematic as pretty much all I got are old Fender tube amps. Sounding like Gabby, well that won't happen for me, but I'm doin' my best to absorb what I can. Workin' on "Blue Hawai`ian Moonlight" with some slack key friends. What started out as a "slack key quartet" concept is branching out, bringing my steel to rehearsal now too. Those "chimes"/false harmonics are hard to consistently hit well but they sure establish the "feel" when you do get 'em. Patience is its own reward. |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2009 : 08:43:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by basilking
I've recently begun working on getting better on my mid-'50s Fender Stringmaster 8. Seems like getting a good tone isn't so problematic as pretty much all I got are old Fender tube amps. Sounding like Gabby, well that won't happen for me, but I'm doin' my best to absorb what I can. Workin' on "Blue Hawai`ian Moonlight" with some slack key friends. What started out as a "slack key quartet" concept is branching out, bringing my steel to rehearsal now too. Those "chimes"/false harmonics are hard to consistently hit well but they sure establish the "feel" when you do get 'em. Patience is its own reward.
Remember, Gabby played it on a single 8 Stringmaster. Two tricks. In C, with a C6 tuning (from bottom, Bb C E G A C E G), play the melody on the 3rd & 4th strings starting on the 5th fret, going up to the 7th and then slanting 8 on 4, 9 on 3 = "Blue Hawaiian Moon (slant here on Moon)". The other is on Gabby's second pass on "I'm depending", a tremelo on E & G strings at the 12th fret, slanting down to 12 and 11 on "You". As I said above, I've really got to video this one. I double checked with Cyril last week, and he agrees with what I've said - also Alan Akaka. I LOVE the Stringmaster!! I have a single and a double 8. I play thru a Peavy Classic 30, and I have a Boss Fender Deluxe Reverb pedal which I use as a direct box when gigging or when I don't want to drag an amp around. Again, thank you Alan! It'll make any little amp sound better, but not quite as good as a tube amp. |
keaka |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2009 : 09:45:50 AM
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quote:
Check out Billy on this video about half way through he goes into Moana Chimes.
Thanks for posting the link. Great performance by an inspirational player.
I've been working back through the Jerry Byrd book lately & got to fooling around with that B-11th tuning. What a cool thing: who knew two major chords a whole step apart stacked on top of each other (Bmaj on the bottom and A maj on top) could yield so many harmonic possibilities! (OK, it's not really a whole step, cuz they are in different octaves... but it's how I can make sense out of it...)
After watching this video, I'm gonna practice harder. Which is always a good thing. |
Edited by - Mark on 11/28/2009 09:47:37 AM |
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Adam Troy
Akahai
Australia
58 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2009 : 10:56:45 AM
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| I have to correct something I said back there. I think Billy meant he was plucking with the thumb pick and muting with a metal finger pick to get a more accurate harmonic. He moves so fast on video I can't be sure. Aloha |
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basilking
Lokahi
124 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2009 : 11:47:22 AM
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I saw a '59 Stringmaster 8 in the Vintage Room @ Gtr Cntr on Sunset in Hywd today, $1595. Seems a little pricey compared to a coupla Stringmaster sgl 8's I've seen on ebay lately going unbidden with BIN of ~$8-900, in case anyone's lookin' for a Stringmaster 8.
Thx for "Blue H..." tips, slipry1! My "issue" is I tune to E6 [ez for a long-term gtr plyr to remember which "fret/chord/note-name" I'm at] so will attempt to translate. The guy I bought my steel from long ago tuned to E6, and the Stringmaster 8 I saw up on "guitar row" today was also in E6.
There was a Rick 8 w/horse-shoe p/u on Craigslist here recently but it fell off before I had time to investigate. I did one recording long ago with a vtg horse-shoe p/u Rick lap 6, got that Patsy Cline-era sound ok but gotta admit I sure like the tone of the Stringmaster through an old Vibroverb [15" spkr] or even Deluxe Reverb [12" spkr].
I've played "blues" with the 8 through a brown Deluxe, tone's great for that too, but waaaay easier to tune a 6-string elec guitar to open G/A/D/E and bottleneck for that kinda music [which I've logged much more time on than Hawai`ian music]. The thing that DOES translate well from slide to lap steel is that "hands" thing discussed above - how ya put yr hands on it, mute/damp, blah blah.
Again thx for the Hawai`ian tips. Plenty homework for me! |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2009 : 09:02:54 AM
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| Not that I know steel well enough to get arrested (maybe stopped and issued a warning), but I've been listening to the (un-reissued) Gabby steel cut from East Is West and trying to figure out if some of the other steel work on that album might be his. "Paradise Isle," with which he is credited, is one of those mixed-mode, half Hawaiian/half swing arrangements--the lead instruments are steel and clarinet. The striking thing about the steel work is the extensive use of the pinky-swell, which also shows up on the next track, "Song of the Islands." Makes me wonder whether it might be Gabby on steel there as well, and maybe on the Jose Secretario tracks (though the "Ke Kali Nei Au" steel sounds not quite the same as the others). Any sharp-eared opinions? (Or better yet, detailed information about personnel on this LP.) |
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slacker visiting hours...Secrets of Old HSG tones?
