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salmonella
Lokahi
240 Posts |
 Posted - 11/09/2007 : 12:35:12 PM
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One of the very first slack key songs I am trying to work on is from an instructional book/CD by Keola Beamer. It requires what, for me, seems to be a very long left hand stretch (3rd string 2nd fret, 4th and 5th strings 5th fret). I can make the stretch most times but not quickly or consistently and that ring finger on the 5th string keeps sliding down to 4th fret. (oh the buzz!!!)
I have searched the TP archives and saw all sorts of great advice on classical position vs cowboy position (that doesn't look too good in print, does it)and wrist bend, thumb position etc. Also some great suggestions on books for position and exercises.
After looking at video of various players and thinking about how relaxed and comfortable most of my playing seems to be, I have decided not to wholesale switch to classical position at this time. (no parlor guitar for me either, my dread will have to do for now).
Finally, my question...
Since I can actually make this stretch now, but not consistently, is it your opinion(s) that a little left hand position and a bunch of practice and stretching exercises will enable me to make a stretch like this or should I stick with some less strenous music for awhile and reconsider trying the classical position?
Dave
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 1:02:10 PM
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Keola Beamer's on line beginner lessons include some stretching exercises. That may help. Another idea, if the song doesn't require you to go too far up the neck, is to capo several frets up the neck. You learn the song where the frets are closer together, then move the capo one fret towards the nut. Practice at this position until you can make the stretch,and move the capo again. By the time you take the capo off completely, you shouldn't have trouble with that stretch. It may take several days at each position, but you gradually stretch until your hand adapts to the challenge.
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 1:55:58 PM
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quote:
Another idea, if the song doesn't require you to go too far up the neck, is to capo several frets up the neck. You learn the song where the frets are closer together, then move the capo one fret towards the nut. Practice at this position until you can make the stretch,and move the capo again. By the time you take the capo off completely, you shouldn't have trouble with that stretch. It may take several days at each position, but you gradually stretch until your hand adapts to the challenge.
Paul, that is one of the best ideas I've heard in a long time. So simple, and so useful!
Dave -- I don't know what you mean by not making a "wholesale switch" but you can do a very simple excercise: Hold the stretch in question while balancing the guitar on your right leg (what I'm guessing you call "cowboy position").
Then move the guitar so the lower bout is between your legs, with the neck elevated slightly, and see if the stretch is any easier.
If it is, that's the way you should hold the guitar. If it isn't --- well, I don't know how it couldn't be easier, actually. It's an ergonomics thing. 
But I can understand not wanting to change a lifetime of habits--- it took me years to finally start holding the guitar that way.
Personally, I can't stand the "classical" position with one foot on a little stool. That throws your back all out of whack. I use a strap to elevate the neck.
Oh, and look at old pictures of cowboys -- when they were playing guitars (not often -- banjos were far more common) they often held 'em as I described.
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salmonella
Lokahi
240 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 2:02:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by rendesvous1840
Another idea, if the song doesn't require you to go too far up the neck, is to capo several frets up the neck.
Paul
Actually, the song goes all the way to fret 14 but in a different phrase so I could capo and practice just the phrase with the stretch then slowly reintegrate it after I get back to no capo.
thanks |
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salmonella
Lokahi
240 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 2:14:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark
(what I'm guessing you call "cowboy position").
If it is, that's the way you should hold the guitar.
But I can understand not wanting to change a lifetime of habits--- it took me years to finally start holding the guitar that way.
Oh, and look at old pictures of cowboys -- when they were playing guitars (not often -- banjos were far more common) they often held 'em as I described.
I never heard it referred to as "cowboy" until I read through the TP archives yesterday and today.
I have done some experimenting with moving the guitar to the left. In some cases it makes things better and in others worse. If I decide to make big changes I will likely seek out someone in person who can evaluate the whole picture.
As for pictures of old cowboys... no thanks. What I did though, was to look at video clips of many of today's slack key players. The mix of "right leg flat" (L. Kaapana) and "left leg elevated" (K. Beamer) is quite varied with just about everything in between also represented.
I saw some posts (from you?) in the archives about shoulder problems, wrist problems, Physical Therapy etc. I am much more interested in not damaging myself than in making a long reach so I need to do the research on that also.
thanks for your input. It is very helpful.
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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 11:52:39 PM
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Hello...ooooh (Norman says)...
I reckon' that guitars were generally smaller back before Gene Autry biggie-sized 'em on the mass media of the time...
And did they have straps and/or footstools?
Or maybe just piled up some road-apples or stuck the boot on a rock in the fire. Yahoooo.....
The capo is a good suggestion that's been mentioned before...and Mark's ideas are always darn good...
Of course, Keola will make your left hand challenged now and then!
But if you are in any 'mostly respectable', guitar-holding position, then you must, one way or another practice that passage to build up the technique...not necessarily the part beginning at the 14th fret.
Guitar cowboys here in Colorado sometimes quote "Your left hand really will do that, ....but not unless you keep practicing it" (Sam Broussard--one of our old local guitar heroes gone to LA or somwhere out west).
Also, real cowboys can get a little banged up and crooked over time...so any position might have to do.
When wranglers -- with some parts broke, bent, or missin'...showed a couple of us greenhorns how to do things "the cowboy way" , that's when I said, "I"ll be the fiddler"...safer, less heroic work...
But, of course, City-Slicker, Birkenstock Cowboys ALWAYS have to watch our step out here.
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da_joka
Lokahi
361 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2007 : 05:00:30 AM
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i get small hands too. I jus got Daniel Ho's book (mostly out of curiousity) an in his G-Kilauea, get some stretches 2nd string 3rd fret to 1st string 7th fret. I no can make dat stretch - my fingahs way to short. I wen figgah out, but, dat da same notes can be played 3rd string 7th fret and 1st string 7th fret.
Wat you guys tink about using alternate positions fo da positions dat is physically impossible? |
If can, can. If no can, no can. |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2007 : 05:34:43 AM
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Joka, no rules. Go for it. Slight timbre change, but maybe better, too.
Dave, have you ever seen Muriel Anderson play? She is about 4 1/2 feet tall with miniscule hands. She plays nearly every kind of music in the world - and magnificently, too. Bach to bluegrass. I have seen her 1st finger and pinky at 180 deg to each other. It is just a matter of practicing the stretch. Slowly and persistently.
...Reid |
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sandman
Lokahi
USA
181 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2007 : 06:12:42 AM
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The book "Pumping Nylon" has helped me a lot.
Small Hands Sandy |
Leap into the boundless and make it your home.
Zhuang-zi |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2153 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2007 : 06:13:44 AM
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| I used Paul's capo suggestion years ago when learning some rags. I have big hands, but some stretches are still hard. Capos are tools. They let you get by without having someone else hold a barre position for you (I've done it that way, it was hilarious and tedious!) |
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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2007 : 07:39:47 AM
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When getting some tips from Daniel Ho, I felt I had a reasonably good left hand position, but on the 6ths on adjacent strings, he was VERY particular about angle and position of fingers and hand...I was reaching the notes, but not in the absolute acceptable fashion...and his way of adding 6ths to his orchestrated style is admirable and very musical...but the purer technique his non-traditional slack-key may require is not often needed for more traditional slack.
Both he and Muriel have smaller hands, yet greater reach than I, but their classical abilities and extra hand reaches that they achieve through optimum practice and training are pretty exceptional--and are not a "pick it up and do this" in a single session matter...
Some of our "training wheels" approach seems wise if you are reaching for those higher ideals in technique...
and I reckon' will have to practice it...
But the old adage that dialogued,
Q: "How do you get to Carnegie Hall"
A: "Practice"--
ain't quite accurate...it's CORRECTLY REPEATED PRACTICE, and in this case the site we seek to play is farther west, and the dress code replaces tuxes with Aloha shirts.
While I aim for something approaching the best way, I often settle for a fusion version of Frank Sinatra/Daniel Ho techniques ...I'll try to get close to the Ho-way, but often settle for doing it My Way.
If you make it on an Island, who cares if you make it anywhere else! I prefer my venues a little to the west of Frank's big town.
Maybe a place where the apples meet the road. |
Edited by - Kapila Kane on 11/10/2007 08:07:25 AM |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2007 : 10:50:02 AM
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As Kapila Kane said, practice doesn't make perfect- Parfect Practice makes Perfect. Play as slowly as is necessary to play without mistakes.Only speed up when you can play perfectly without strain,or pain.When you are ready to move on, you will know.No extra points for playing fast, or learning quicker than someone else.Perfectly executed, a piece sounds good slow or fast. Poorly executed sounds sloppy no matter the speed.If it takes longer to learn, so what? What, me worry?
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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salmonella
Lokahi
240 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2007 : 07:54:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by da_joka
Wat you guys tink about using alternate positions fo da positions dat is physically impossible?
If can, can. If no can, no can! |
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salmonella
Lokahi
240 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2007 : 07:56:12 AM
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Thank you all for a wealth of great suggestions and opinions.
I have been trying several of them and I am slowly finding what I think will work for me.
Dave |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2007 : 12:07:47 PM
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Assuming we're still talking guitar here, alternate positions make perfect sense.
And sometimes I use a harmonic where none was on whatever song I happen to be making a mess of. Actually, an alternate phrase makes perfect sense, when something's beyond your reach. Or, try another tuning or even another key. I don't think this is like Old Time music, in which certain songs are exclusively played in certain keys. Of course, I play dulcimer, and some of us put nearly every song in D.
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
Edited by - rendesvous1840 on 11/12/2007 12:08:28 PM |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2007 : 2:45:47 PM
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You must be referring to the bridge in Minoaka.
I am a small man and I am able to do it by moving my arm and elbow out under the neck. That gives me room to arch my hand and clear the other strings when my fingers flaten out during the stretch.
Since there is a lot tension in my fingers, I have to work on removing them without squeaking, but with time, these things always seem to work out.
It will keep getting better until one day you can just do it at will. As I mentioned, your next issue will probably be removing your fingers without a squeak. But, thats why we practice.
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Bob |
Edited by - RWD on 11/12/2007 2:52:14 PM |
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