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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu

USA
1533 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2009 :  7:21:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit hapakid's Homepage
I am sympathetic to Fran's take on the whole Sony brand. My last field recorder was a $250 minidisc. Within a week I lost an entire recording assignment because Sony put DRM software between me and my recordings. it only allows you to access your recordings one time. There is no excuse to require clunky DRM software to limit access to my own recordings. For another $150 I could buy one that allows direct access. Grrr. I now hate the entire Sony Corporation with the white hot passion of a thousand suns and will never buy another Sony product. Yes, it's personal.

Jesse Tinsley

Edited by - hapakid on 06/12/2009 7:41:10 PM
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a

USA
1505 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2009 :  06:32:55 AM  Show Profile  Visit Fran Guidry's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by Mark

quote:
Good thing I'm not ego-involved here.






Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it <grin>.

Fran

E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu

USA
580 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2009 :  07:02:20 AM  Show Profile  Visit hwnmusiclives's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by hapakid

Grrr. I now hate the entire Sony Corporation with the white hot passion of a thousand suns and will never buy another Sony product.


Don't hold back. We're all friends here. Tell us how you really feel!



Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org.
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a

USA
1597 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2009 :  07:10:03 AM  Show Profile
quote:
Within a week I lost an entire recording assignment because Sony put DRM software between me and my recordings. it only allows you to access your recordings one time.
Same thing happened to me, Jesse.

I will never buy a Sony again. Just bought a big LCD TV, chose Samsung even though the stores were pushing Sony hard.

Still have some Sony equipment in the house, want to throw it all in the trash, but cannot bring myself to do it as long as it still works.


Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras
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Mark
Ha`aha`a

USA
1628 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2009 :  09:05:44 AM  Show Profile  Visit Mark's Homepage
With apologies to Lawrence, Fran & Jesse, et al:

Ummm, given that DRM (digital rights management) was clearly part of the Sony MiniDisc spec at the time you bought the products, why is "losing" a recording Sony's fault? Aside from the fact that you could always do an analog transfer...

I once owned a sony mini disc--which I did not particularly care for. Why? Because I thought the mini disc format was clunky & did not sound all that good. But, at the time, a sony mini disc was the only inexpensive digital recorder available, & I wanted to see what all the fuss was about. Not much, IMHO.

I did not care for the DRM--- but I knew it existed cuz I read the manual & did my research. I also knew I could not do digital transfers. Was that Sony's fault? At the time, you could not do a digital transfer from any consumer mini disc. Sure, I could have bought a portable DAT, but I didn't.

BTW: Sony made both a portable DAT and a mini disc designed for pro use. Both did not have DRM, both had digital ouputs. Both cost a lot more than consumer gear... that's always the case, innit?

But OK, so you hate Sony. And Lawrence hates Bose. That is fine. I think we all know that now.

How do you feel about Volkswagon or Microtech Gefel? (Nazi & East Germany, respectively... for those keeping score). Or how do you feel about any number of Chinese-made products built with virtual slave labor? That would include just about every inexpensive recorder on the market, and some expensive ones, too, I believe.

And don't get me started on the environmental hazards involved in manufacturing of any of this crapola. Or the hazards of disposing it. Or the planetary costs of shipping it across a very large ocean...

Does any of this really have anything at all to do with what this thread is about? Since many readers of TP are interested in portable recorders, I made a few judgement calls based on some recent reviews I had done. One of them seems to have hit a nerve... which is fine.

As someone wisely stated some posts back, it's really just a matter of personal preference.

For the record, I've experienced gear failures from Alesis (multiple), Mackie, Zoom (yep, really), M-Audio (multiple), Boss, Roland (multiple), Shadow, RCA, Fostex, Tascam, Yamaha, Peavey (but of course...), Carvin (ditto), DBX, MOTU, GML (!) and (yep) Sony. Among others.

I've also spent gawd knows how many hours fussing with Amek and SSL consoles with failed modules, big old tape machines that crapped out, messed up mic pre's, broken cables, failed mics, blown tubes... just your basic day in the studio.

If there is one constant with electronic gadgets, it is that they work except when they don't.

Can we move on?

And now, for the benefit of anyone still reading this thread, here is my final recommendation of which recorder you should buy:

A pencil and a pad of paper. Preferably made from organic, sustainable & recycled materials by happy, well paid workers in a well ventilated factory within ten miles of where you live.

But not if it's a Sony.

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Retro
Ahonui

USA
2368 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2009 :  09:18:07 AM  Show Profile  Visit Retro's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by Mark

And now, for the benefit of anyone still reading this thread, here is my final recommendation of which recorder you should buy:

A pencil and a pad of paper. Preferably made from organic, sustainable & recycled materials by happy, well paid workers in a well ventilated factory within ten miles of where you live.


My brain is the only environmentally-friendly recorder that I've ever found. It captures pictures, video, sound, and even touch and scent (no digital device yet does all that!) It does require several hours of rebooting/recharging on a daily basis, but I've used mine (which was a gift, btw) for more than half-a-century, and I don't appear to have come close to capacity yet.

Now as for a failure rate - that's another question altogether, but it's been pretty reliable to date (as far as it leads me to believe...)
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a

USA
1501 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2009 :  09:22:09 AM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Retro

quote:
Originally posted by Mark

And now, for the benefit of anyone still reading this thread, here is my final recommendation of which recorder you should buy:

A pencil and a pad of paper. Preferably made from organic, sustainable & recycled materials by happy, well paid workers in a well ventilated factory within ten miles of where you live.


My brain is the only environmentally-friendly recorder that I've ever found. It captures pictures, video, sound, and even touch and scent (no digital device yet does all that!) It does require several hours of rebooting/recharging on a daily basis, but I've used mine (which was a gift, btw) for more than half-a-century, and I don't appear to have come close to capacity yet.

Now as for a failure rate - that's another question altogether, but it's been pretty reliable to date (as far as it leads me to believe...)


Whazzat you say? Huh?? Oh.... i fo'get!

keaka
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a

USA
1597 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2009 :  11:14:25 AM  Show Profile
Sorry Mark, I did not even remember that you had recommended the Sony unit over the others, but I DO remember that you recommended that folks get the one that fits their requirements best!

quote:
I once owned a sony mini disc--which I did not particularly care for. Why? Because I thought the mini disc format was clunky & did not sound all that good. But, at the time, a sony mini disc was the only inexpensive digital recorder available, & I wanted to see what all the fuss was about. Not much, IMHO.

I did not care for the DRM--- but I knew it existed cuz I read the manual & did my research. I also knew I could not do digital transfers. Was that Sony's fault? At the time, you could not do a digital transfer from any consumer mini disc. Sure, I could have bought a portable DAT, but I didn't.


Some slight mis-information above: On the original format (the 130MB minidisc, you could indeed do digital transfers if you bought the HOME UNIT with the SPDIF output - which I did). One of the pieces of Sony gear I still have and still use since I have about 500 minidiscs filed away in my studio (and not all of them are transferred into the PC).

On the new format (1GB disk), I did not purchase the unit, but used a friend's unit and lo-and-behold the single-read DRM kicked in and we lost a whole night of recordings (all were 44.1 16bit non-compressed). Sony later backed out of that DRM and allowed a few digital downloads on their later units, but too late to save the market.

And yep, you present good analysis of the potential "badness" of other products and corporations. However if someone personally "burns me" and they burn me bad (like Sony has done several times), I never forget.

Besides Sony, and Bose, you left out Monster and Nike (that I won't buy from). And from previous discussions about Travel, you know I will never fly on American Airlines again. AND no one will ever get me to wear boxer shorts, and I quit wearing support hose many years ago!

(Begins foaming at the mouth )

A man's got to know his limitations

Heh heh heh...


Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras

Edited by - Lawrence on 06/15/2009 11:49:02 AM
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Mark
Ha`aha`a

USA
1628 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2009 :  2:04:44 PM  Show Profile  Visit Mark's Homepage
You wore support hose????

Are you saying that you recorded something, and then were not allowed to listen to it???? So you could not do an analog(ue) transfer? If that is indeed the case, anger would be the justified reaction. As would breaking things. Did that to a recalcitrant Nagra once....

Nonetheless, I am still waiting for someone to post their review of the new Zoom deal. Craig mentioned that it appeared to answer some of the shortcomings of the original.

Anyone got one? How's it sound? Is the display bigger? Can you shave a Klingon with it????

(Thanks, Craig, for the note on the Olympus' bass roll off. Useful info, that...)

BTW: I think we did a "boxers vs briefs" thread awhile ago...

Edited by - Mark on 06/15/2009 2:06:33 PM
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a

USA
1505 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2009 :  05:29:17 AM  Show Profile  Visit Fran Guidry's Homepage
http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/03/07/first-look-at-the-zoom-h4n/

and a couple more including one demonstrating Mid-Side recording using the H4n decoder.

To summarize, the features are great, the UI is fine, the feel is terrific, the XLR preamps are decent, the built-in mics are a bit brighter than the H2 but with similar noise levels.

Fran

E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog
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cpatch
Ahonui

USA
2187 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2009 :  05:49:22 AM  Show Profile  Visit cpatch's Homepage  Send cpatch an AOL message
Fran's review fails to mention that he returned the H4N because it wasn't enough of an upgrade over his H2 for his needs.

Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can.

Edited by - cpatch on 06/16/2009 05:50:31 AM
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a

USA
1597 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2009 :  06:31:24 AM  Show Profile
quote:
You wore support hose????
If I never did, then it is easy to quit! However, I did once wear ballet tights in performance in my younger more svelte daze.


quote:
Nonetheless, I am still waiting for someone to post their review of the new Zoom deal. Craig mentioned that it appeared to answer some of the shortcomings of the original.

Anyone got one? How's it sound? Is the display bigger? Can you shave a Klingon with it????

As I mentioned above, I just got an H4n as well. Yes, the display is much bigger and clearer than the H2. My main gripe is that they made it heavier than it needed to be (probably to make it seem more Pro and Rugged), but that makes the flight case heavier, and these days every ounce on the plane matters.

Contrary to Fran, I think the mics are a little bit quieter and certainly brighter than the H2. I really like the menu system too with the scroll and select controls on the side so you can make quick selections with the thumb just holding the thing in your right hand.

The stamina mode is intriguing too, since I plan to do most of my recordings in 44.1/16 and this mode claims 11 hours battery life in stamina mode (but only allows 44.1/16 stereo in this mode). But not having a built in rechargeable battery system (in contrast to the Sony minidisc systems) is less convenient, requiring me to buy a separate charger or use lots of non-rechargeable batteries (most likely scenario).

It takes bigger capacity SD cards (SDHC - up to 32Gig). With the 16Gig cards I just bought, I can get 25 hours of 44.1/16 stereo on each card. And a bunch of these teensy cards do not take much space at all.

The main two reasons I selected it over the other available units are: 1) It can record 4 channels simultaneously (i.e. a stereo mix output and stereo ambient together), and 2) It has 48V phantom on two of the channels (suitable for a pair of good ambient mics). In this case the internal mics would not be used, but the internal preamps still would be in use, so I hope that they are substantially better.

Searching Fran's links above, one user has tested the input attenuation (gain) setting and was able to record at an ear-bleeding level of 115db spl without clipping distortion (gain set to something like 20). So, it looks like when they removed the mic sensitivity switch of the H4 and H2, they also changed the input gain adjustment so it changes preamp gain. I think I remember reading in the manual that something like that was done for this H4n re-design.

Field test to be conducted over the next few weeks.


Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras

Edited by - Lawrence on 06/16/2009 10:00:36 AM
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