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jcfergus
Aloha
USA
30 Posts |
 Posted - 05/31/2002 : 4:15:52 PM
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On jwn's suggestion, I am starting a new topic to discuss the ideas around learning another player's song note-for-note. There were several good thoughts about it under "the Wall" topic.
For me, having worked on other styles on both fingerstyle and lap slide guitar before finding slack key, learning to play note-for-note was/is part of the learning process for me. My brain doesn't seem to translate the feel and emotion of a song into music on a guitar until I have learned to play someone else's songs and I usually require written music to start the process. I hope this changes eventually. I still know what to play intuitively on the drums (my original instrument) without even thinking about it even though I haven't really played the drums for almost 25 years. Much of this is probably based on my learning style.
As stated earlier in "The Wall" by someone, slack key is a folk tradition. This leaves a lot of room for experimentation, simplification, variation, and sometimes a vacation. My experience with the major slack key players is that they rarely play the same piece the same way twice unless there is a very specific reason.
Jim
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Pauline Leland
`Olu`olu
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2002 : 9:47:49 PM
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Jim,
I'm just beginning, so the songs I'm learning are at a simple level. I'm trying to learn them note for note; I don't have the skill sets to deliberately vary the notes. However, when I make a mistake that still sounds OK, I relish the freedom of slack key. And I've come across a chord that my fingers won't stretch for. It's not that tricky, but I'm not that limber, so I changed it.
"If it sounds good, it is good." I think Duke Ellington said that. I'm becoming a believer. When not playing slack key, I try to learn classical guitar music which I find beautiful, too. Still, one has to be precise with less room for interpreting notes on one's own. Segovia did, John Williams does, but they paid their dues first; I'm still scraping some pennies together. So, as I said, I relish the freedom of slack key and being able to fake it until I can play it.
Pauline |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2002 : 9:58:06 PM
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I'd been playing guitar for 5-6 years when I began learning slack key. Even though I picked up chords pretty quickly and had a good enough ear to strum along with the radio (yes, you have to love those 3 chord songs), alt tunings were a mystery to me. And finger picking was an additional challenge.
I had no one to play slack key with so my only way of learning was through books, learning note-for-note. Leonard Kwan's book, first song, must have taken a year to get through that one. Ozzie Kotani's book was great, because I could get through each song in less than a year per song!  Last song I learned was Radio Hula, and I was too lazy to learn note-for-note from Mark Hanson's book. I referenced certain sections but then listened to various recordings to see what I could emulate. I did similarly with Leonard Kwan's Opihi Moemoe.
So my experience has been learning note-for-note, particularly if I find the time to do it. I advocate this method of learning as a way of honoring the masters who created the music. I want to get it right, you know? However, there is something to be said for letting go of the tablature ASAP, getting rid of that crutch , once you can play through a song. And once you begin understanding the "vocabulary" of a given tuning, you can improvise and have some fun with it. My comments will not apply to the backyard players who have a completely different experience.
Not sure if there is any moral to this story so I'm going to go play the guitar now. 
Andy |
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slackkey
Lokahi
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2002 : 12:24:05 AM
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"Andy! I like kanikajammapila with you! Shall I bring anything? A Hui Hou!
slackkey 
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2002 : 12:33:07 AM
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How about the nose flute? You have a great one.
I wonder who can stay up later? 1:36am now. 
Andy
Ps. Maybe I can kanikajammapila in Central Park on Sunday. |
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slackkey
Lokahi
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2002 : 02:37:31 AM
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Hey Andy! What time at Centural Park? I have my nose-flute packed, and hitchin a ride on the back of a Humpback Whale!
Eh Brah...az not fair! You already one day ahead of me! time now here is still Friday June 31st! And the time now is 9:30 P.M. Hawaii time.
But hey! I'll see you here for Maui's Bankoh Kiho'alu Festival 2002! Think you can make it here on time? I'll be on the grass directly in front the stage.
Bill
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2002 : 12:55:05 PM
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I'm kind of torn on this one. On the one hand, it doesn't seem entirely appropriate to approach a folk tradition in the manner of classical music, where the text is set and there's not much wiggle-room for varying a performance. I've spent way too much time in workshops where players were trying to do John Hurt or Gary Davis exactly as heard on records, and managing to lose the feel as they struggle to get the precise notes. (I feel the same way about Kottke and Hedges, but there you can argue that their performances constitute a set text and they are more appropriately approached that way. But "The Fisherman" can still be simplified and sound reasonably like Leo.)
On the other hand, I find that if I want to sound idiomatically slack-key, I need to work on the vocabulary of vamps, licks, and runs as they're played by the masters, and this is where (for landlocked midwesterners, anyway) a good transcription or a video comes in handy, and where something like note-for-note emulation is appropriate. It is where, I suspect, the student in the old-style setting (grandpa or uncle playing, kid watching and soaking it up) would be expected to just do it the right way.
I have a copy of a tape of an Auntie Alice lesson from the 1970s in which the student plays along in unison with Auntie, lick for lick and run for run. My impression is that Auntie Alice's approach was to show a set of basic figures (there were 17 if I recall correctly) which were the foundation of all her playing--then the student was ready to continue independently.
I know that something like this applies to folk and jazz players: you assemble the genre's vocabulary in part by learning whole tunes "as played by" Chet or Doc or the Rev or whoever. But in performance, you tend not to get those precise arrangements. Instead, the spirit of Chet, et al. is transmitted without the player functioning as a simple playback device (though the most technically competent pickers are capable of doing just that).
So for me, a transcription like John Stropes' incredibly detailed one of "Punahele" is not something I expect to play as written (even assuming I ever have the chops to do so), but a documentation of Uncle Ray's techniques and vocabulary that I will work through in order to be able to participate in the conversation that the tune is part of.
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2002 : 12:32:02 AM
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Just a few words, cause that's what a forum is about, yah?
I think when you are starting out anything, you look for someone to tell you how to do it. So ok, play it note for note -- but with slack key, it seems even more critical is the feeling. -- Play it feeling for feeling, or something like that. I think the big problem comes when you start getting too picky, obsessive, anal, etc. etc.
I've heard Ozzie Kotani say multiple times -- the purpose of playing slack key is to enjoy the music. If a piece is too hard, simplify it some so you can enjoy it.
Makes sense to me. After you get hooked, you want to build up your technique anyway -- Right now I'll try to copy a Peter Moon solo -- but I never get it completely right. Nevertheless, each tiome I try I stretch myself. And usually I end up with something worth playing. Who knows, maybe in 20 years if I'm not to senile or arthritic I might just be able to get it note for note.
Picasso said it's good to learn painting by copying -- then look for your "mistakes" and you get to see your originality. (OK, so I don't even get verbal quotes word for word -- the feeling it right.)
Now let me see, okolelo or guitar...
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Bruddah Chrispy
Lokahi
USA
164 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2002 : 2:16:23 PM
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Aloha kakou,
I've already weighed in on dis topic in "The Wall" discussion; but I'll go chime in again for a few reasons: One, I can't pass up the opportunity to leap up on a soapbox, and B, Keith is catching up to me on the number of messages posted  and third, I've got a slightly different slant on da whole thing after reading some of the posts.
I do learn a song note-for-note when I'm reading the tabs. (And, frankly, I'm at the level where dats the only way I've been able to learn any songs.) But once I get away from the tabs the songs sometimes begin to wander. Sometimes it's a conscious effort on my part, such as the variations I've started playing with Ozzie's Kani Ki Ho`alu.
But often it's because I hear a slightly different song in my head. And ultimately, that's what I'm playing: the song I hear in my head. Tabs or notation are just some artist's attempt to capture on paper the song he/she hears in her/his head, yeah?
When we're playing a piece that we know fairly well, it's natural that we're going to hear it the way Gabby or Sonny or Led played it and try to reproduce that. But, for me, with songs such as Molehu, I had nevah heard it before. I bought Ozzie's book back when it came with one cassette, not a CD, and I didn't have a cassette player. So I just learned da tabs and started to hear a song. The more I heard the song, the more I tried to play the song. But I don't know if it's da song dat Ozzie heard when he wrote the tabs. And frankly, I don't much care.
When I started playing with other people (Derek-the-silent and Pauline-the-postful ) I started to hear yet another song, with more voices, and I tried to play my voice in that chorus.
So far it seems to be working. Which is to say "I'm happy".
Aloha a hui hou,
Chris P. |
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jcfergus
Aloha
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2002 : 3:22:42 PM
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Since I started this I guess I can add more to it?
I think Bruddah Chrispy is on the right track. I had much the same experience with the same video that jwn used. The first song I really worked at learning was the first song on the tape. First watching Keola play, then using the tab, I worked to where I had all of the notes (even if all of the fingering transitions weren't as smooth as I would like). Then I watched the tape some more to get the feeling of how he played. I didn't watch the tape all that often but practiced daily.
It seems that the song my head (to use your quote, Bruddah), came out somewhat different than Keola. He also used different fingerings, it appears mostly because his ring and little finger are very strong and mine aren't. But as I played, I came to like my version also. It isn't executed as well or as smoothly (yet), but he has a couple of years of experience on me, so I don't feel too bad about it.
What I beginning to strive for is to emphasize the melody. Although, sometimes I find difficult to differentiate the actual melody from all of the embellishments. Some songs are easy, like Led Kaapana's Koke'e on Black Sand, but others are much more difficult.
So now I use the tab to get the melody, the turn-arounds and tricky licks. It also helps to understand how the masters play what I hear (assuming it is a good transcription). But I am trying to get to where I can let the tune take its own direction. On the song I have practiced most, Chillingworth's Moe 'Uhane, I have only occasionally listened to the song on CD and depend more on how it feels to me at the time I am playing to provide the musical expression. Sometimes it is quiet and smooth, very nahenahe, and other times it feels much more dynamic. I enjoy it both ways. I don't think either are wrong, just different than how Sonny felt when he recorded it. I have no doubt he played it differently at times, also.
And to respond to something Pauline said, "...I relish the freedom of slack key and being able to fake it until I can play it." I say, you aren't faking it, you ARE playing it. The technique may be different, but to paraphrase the Duke, if it feels good and sounds good, then it IS good.
One of my musical goals is to use a couple of old music books of Hawaiian Songs that I have as a basis for creating my own slack key arrangements. This shouldn't be any different than Ozzie Kotani arranging Queen Liliuokalani songs on his recent album (except he's Hawaiian and I am not and he's been playing his whole life and I haven't ).
Jim
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2002 : 6:47:41 PM
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quote:
This shouldn't be any different than Ozzie Kotani arranging Queen Liliuokalani songs on his recent album (except he's Hawaiian and I am not and he's been playing his whole life and I haven't ).
Jim,
Your comment brings up an interesting side note that Ozzie shared with us in Puna last August. Being of Japanese decent growing up in Hawai`i and not Hawaiian by bloodline, Ozzie encountered many barriers to being accepted into the Hawaiian music scene early in his career. So much so that he put his guitar away and stopped playing for a while. In time, he came to terms with it and decided that he would play whatever he wanted to play, the way he wanted to, and not worry about what people thought. Ironically, that is when he found he was accepted.
This takes us back to, "If it sounds good, it is good."
Andy |
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2002 : 03:50:11 AM
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i'm off at a professional workshop and am without guitar or uke, and so i'm suffering withdrawal symptoms...
on the guitar i'm still at the note-for-note stage but trying to break out. i'm amazed at how the performers i admire can do so much with so little. led, for example, rarely plays more than two strings at a time and often has long single string runs. how does he make it sound so intricate? i've noticed a few things that are probably so elementary that you all know them. so, at the risk of being boringly pedandic:
- a walking bass line adds a lot. i naturally hear the higher notes but feel the bass notes, and so when i try to improv i often forget to set up a solid bass line. i've started concentrating on listening to bass lines of recordings i like (eg, ke'ala's mele, cyril pahinui's stuff).
- repeating a middle voice adds a lot. keola does this - find a note in the middle range of the current piece and return to it with regularity. andy's observation about hearing the D voiced in the C chord of "wahine 'ilikea" is an example of this rule. D clashes with the C chord, but dennis lets it chime out every now and then. i can't tell if he keeps it up when he moves down to the G chord (where D doesn't clash) because his voice covers it, but i bet he does.
- related to the first point, ray sakuma told me (what a great guy, by the way! he's worth arranging a honolulu trip around) that he listens to the rhythym of a song. by that, i think he means he ignores the notes and instead concentrates on the timing. when i started doing that and tried to copy it, it forced me out of pattern picking (which is a trap for me).
anyway, as i said, these are just what i've observed so far while playing around...
aloha,
keith
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2002 : 6:35:18 PM
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I would like to underline the point by "jcfergus" on the melody --
I don't sing well, so if I rely just on background vamping, the songs start sounding too much alike. I think this is one of the big differences in what is recorded by most slack key masters, and why a lot of Keola's work, and all of Ozzie's work so much appeals to them of us who don't sing.
I follow a typical pattern -- get the melody (either from a song book, cd, or from George, see note below.) Then I work out the chords, most of the time transposing into something I can play in Taro Patch. I then spend dome time seeing what I can come up with. Next I turn to my recordings collection (which is catalogued on a database) listen to every version I have recorded, read the liner notes to try to get a better understanding of the piece, "borrow" the licks I like (not note for note, but so it sounds good when I play it) -- go back to my chords and melody and try to work out 3 or 4 variations. Sometimes as I play it over time, new things develop, sometimes old stuff gets dropped. Occasionally I chuck it all and start again, hopefully in a different tempo or style, etc. Takes me anywhere from 1 - 4 weeks to work up an arrangement & by the time I've gone through all that I pretty much have it memorized. I typically am working on 3 - 4 songs at a time, a couple of play-throughs a day.
(NOTE: Actaully I add another step or two into the mix 'cause I work with George Kahumoku a couple of hours a week -- I play the stuff I'm working on and George makes comments, suggestions. Sometimes we TAB it for his workshops.)
Raymond
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