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Darin
Lokahi

USA
294 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2007 :  09:05:30 AM  Show Profile  Visit Darin's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Any history buffs out there who can tell me which popular Hawaiian songs are in the public domain? Thanks!

Darin
http://www.hawaiiguitar.com/

Retro
Ahonui

USA
2362 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2007 :  10:09:11 AM  Show Profile  Visit Retro's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Whoo, Darin! If such an accurate list exists, I'd like to see it as well. It's been a long-standing challenge for us to know who gets payments of royalties (for songwriting & publishing) on a lot of Hawaiian songs, as there are many parties who claim "ownership" on a lot of classic material.

P.S.) I played a song by your pal, Curtis, on last weekend's radio show. I met him a few months back, while buying an amp. Small world Hawai`i connections once again, yeah?
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noeau
Ha`aha`a

USA
1105 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2007 :  10:51:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Many songs while old seem public domain but aren't. Some copy rights are re purchased by publishers and they make money on it. Usually in the USA songs copyrights last 75 years so it is hard to figure out. Most times though check out Harry Fox it is a listing source for copyrighted songs and mechanical licenses can be purchased there. Its pretty complex but if you had a cpoyrighted song you would want to make sure it is protected. Good luck on your search.

No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō.
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T-Dan
Lokahi

USA
132 Posts

Posted - 11/04/2007 :  06:27:33 AM  Show Profile  Visit T-Dan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I know this post is gathering some dust, but I was wondering the same thing, did a search on taropatch that brought me to this thread, and then did a couple of 'net searches that yielded this:

http://mele.home.att.net/list_ACHSHopkins.htm

Under the heading of "ya can't believe everything ya read on the internet," I would double check any titles listed here with ASCAP and/or the Library of Congress before doing anything "official" with these, but it looked like a good place to start...

Edited by - T-Dan on 11/04/2007 06:27:55 AM
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Mark
Ha`aha`a

USA
1628 Posts

Posted - 11/04/2007 :  08:39:19 AM  Show Profile  Visit Mark's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I have that book, it is a treasure! One of the things that I truly love about Hawaiian music is how many of these old songs are still very much alive today.

One note: you will find that later publishers have attempted to claim copyrights on quite a few of these songs. I'm not an attorney (nor do I play one on TV), but IMHO they can go take a flying.... leap.
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a

USA
1055 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2007 :  7:22:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://www.harryfox.com/index.jsp
I'm not sure if many Hawaiian mele can be found here, but a huge # of songs are listed with the Harry Fox Agency. You can search their files for titles and conposers and it will show who owns the copyright. If it's not listed, that may not mean it's public domain, just that HFA isn't involved.
Paul
Paul

"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello
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Retro
Ahonui

USA
2362 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2007 :  8:56:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit Retro's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Regarding HFA - their record-keeping is severely outdated. They are great with their listings of old standards, but incredibly flaky in anything from the past 20 years or so.

When I was working for that elevator-music firm, we paid millions of dollars each year to cover licensing arrangements that HFA claimed to have. When a handful of publishers contacted us saying that we hadn't been paying them royalties on material of theirs that we had programmed, we contacted HFA - who then admitted that they didn't have all the deals they told us they had, and refunded a few tens of thousands of dollars.

That led to a complete overhaul of how our licensing department operated, and an absolute ban on using material (in recorded programs, not the satellite services) for which we didn't have unquestioningly clear deals. In one day, we went from having 1.5 million songs available to having about 12% of that amount for our recorded mixes. At the time I left the company, that figure was up to around 18%. A dramatic change, which cost the company a pretty hefty amount, and may well have been a factor in our being laid-off.

So you can understand that my faith in the accuracy of HFA is extremely low.
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noeau
Ha`aha`a

USA
1105 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2007 :  10:35:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't trust Hrry either. In some of my searches I could only find lists of different arrangements of a song that varied by the recording artist that made the arrangement on their individual album. Does that mean i can use a song as long as i don't use a specific arrangement as recorded by artist x,y or z. It is not very clear what can and cannot be done. i only know that someone once recorded my performance of Wahine 'Ilikea and then posted it on Mp3 or something only to have some do-gooder complain that I did not or rather my friend did not have a license from Denis. Well I emailed him to get permission and the guy never wrote back. Does that mean he didn't care? Can't say cause he never said one way or the other. but the song was pulled from the site because of some other guy who acted like the copyright police. I made a whole twenty cents while the song was on the site for about six months. I take copyright stuff seriously. But come on Someone writes a song 60 years ago and is now passed on and some agency claims they hold the rights to the song but when you ask about it they don't know if they own it or not. I could not find a lot of Hawaiian songs on Harry Fox's list. Yet I am told to watch out. I can't do the research and also attempt to make a CD. So I would rather leave it in a producers hands to figure that stuff out. It does sometimes turn out that if a song was printed in a book somewhere the publisher of that book of songs sometimes hold the copyrights. But a song should go public in the USA after 70 years or so plus or minus whatever the real number is. So any song since 1937 should be owned by someone. And now i just discovered that the Queen's song book is chock full of previously unpublished song so now we have to get licensed for those songs from LT for the next 70 plus years. At least we know who to contact in that area.

No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō.

Edited by - noeau on 11/17/2007 10:43:08 PM
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Reid
Ha`aha`a

Andorra
1526 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2007 :  02:41:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah Al, you know who to contact about the pieces in The Queen's Songbook, but you will have a long hard slog to actually get the permission. I described the process Sarah went through in another thread - 2 years. But, she really liked Ka Ipo Nohea (as did the campers at the first AMC) and did it all pono.

...Reid
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noeau
Ha`aha`a

USA
1105 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2007 :  3:09:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It is never easy to make music for a record. Thas why I like jammin mo bettah! But I gotta get sumptin down on wax for my mo'opuna and the very few fans that i have.

No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō.

Edited by - noeau on 11/18/2007 3:10:23 PM
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wcerto
Ahonui

USA
5052 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2007 :  3:22:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That's right, bruddah! You've got fans, that's a fact.

Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a

USA
1055 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2007 :  5:38:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ouch! I didn't know there was so many pitfalls in the Fox Agency's work. Someone I know suggested that as a starting place. As to the Queen's Songbook, who/what is LT?
I contacted a well known Hawaiian songwriter last week for permission to email my version of a song to a friend. He answered right away, but stated he had been burned before by people he gave permission to, and so was not giving permission any more. You have to understand the songwriters position, and respect their rights.I'm not sure how long the rights should last after the composer's death, but having read the post earlier this year on how musicians are paid(poorly, if at all)I don't see how the royalties money can be denied their heirs. I expect my wife or children to inherit my tools along with my house. If I wrote songs, should that be any different?
Paul

"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello

Edited by - rendesvous1840 on 11/22/2007 5:39:29 PM
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Reid
Ha`aha`a

Andorra
1526 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2007 :  03:44:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
LT=Lili`uokalani Trust (it also has a less abbreviated name).

...Reid
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Basil Henriques
Lokahi

United Kingdom
225 Posts

Posted - 11/26/2007 :  11:00:32 AM  Show Profile  Visit Basil Henriques's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
I contacted a well known Hawaiian songwriter last week for permission to email my version of a song to a friend.

It's my understanding that permission is only required for public performances. Private and "Educational" usages are quite a different matter.

Once a song has been commercially released, OR performed in Public it then no longer requires the writer's permission to record or perform it, BUT commercial use of the song incurs royalty dues, to whomsoever is collecting on behalf of the 'PUBLISHER' (Not necessarily the writer)

The fallacy that the writer has the right to stop someone performing or recording a song is one that SHOULD be 'Put To Bed' so to speak..

Not wishing to take away from the writer's rights, they obviously are entitled to recompense for use of their intellectual property but they don't have an inalienable right to its usage.

Edited by - Basil Henriques on 12/10/2007 2:22:39 PM
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wcerto
Ahonui

USA
5052 Posts

Posted - 11/26/2007 :  1:31:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Basil - what Paul was doing in seeking permission was not necessarily from the legal standpoint, but more of a matter of respect and honor toward the man who wrote the song. (Paul is away deer hunting this week and cannot answer).

Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi

257 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2007 :  07:32:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Important point to look into (obligatory "I'm not a lawyer" disclaimer inserted):

I don't believe this right to record once it has been commercially released or performed in public extends to derivative works. This probably includes recording or performing an instrumental version of a song that includes lyrics. Example: if someone wanted to record an instrumental version of Keali'i Reichel's "Kawaipunahele", then the compulsory license provision does not apply, and the person wishing to record would need to get permission and a license from him. If anyone is considering doing this, I'd suggest looking into it.
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